How have English punctuation conventions changed over the centuries?

David Crystal’s recent book Making a Point has a rundown of the changes and a very clear framework for discussing them. I’m not going to do it justice, especially because I don’t remember every bit of it. But:

  • There has been a tussle in the history of English punctuation from the invention of printing on, between punctuating according to syntax, and punctuating according to meaning. The former would never allow you to put a comma between a subject and a verb; the latter will let you put a comma after anything, so long as it’s long enough and a single syntactic constituent.
  • Extreme meaning-based punctuation is why renaissance English seems so random. Extreme syntax-based punctuation is why 18th century English seems so mannered.
  • We still rarely put a comma between a subject and a verb; but commas are now much more about meaning than they were two centuries ago.
  • Big complicated multipart sentences are out of favour. The semicolon has suffered from that change in fashion.
  • Punctuation online, and in texts, is newly creative, and is establishing its own distinct norms.

What are the funniest nicknames you’ve been given over the years?

In the order that I recall then:

The delightful Australianism Nicko: only once from a blokey geography teacher.

Acka Nicka in my local high school (where I mercifully only stayed a year), because of my premature acne.

Nick Squared in my elective high school, because Nick Nicholas.

NSN as an undergraduate, because I used to use my patronymic as a middle name, so that was the email address I was allocated.

The Minoan Genius in postgrad by a fellow historical linguist, because we came across the phrase once in some crackpot Basque interpretation of the Phaistos disc, and I’m from Crete.

Not nicknames as such, but I appreciate it when Greeks call me Nikóla or Nikolí, which are familiar forms of Nick. Conversely, I resent the hell out of it when they call me Nik. Am I speaking in English to you? No? Then it’s Nikos. Damnit.

I nickname people obsessively here, but I don’t think I’ve gotten one in return. Be careful what you wish for, I guess…


EDIT: Philip Newton reminds me of opoudjis, on which see Nick Nicholas’ answer to How did you get your nickname? I don’t even think of that as a nickname, but that is how it got started.

What is the relationship between Greek nationalism and the Greek Orthodox Church?

Before the Greek War of Independence: the Orthodox Church was hostile to nationalism. Nationalism was this newfangled, godless French thing that set the people against their god-appointed ruler. The Patriarchate was particularly outspoken against it, and described it as a heresy.

That’s nationalism. Yes, you can say the Orthodox church helped preserve a notion of Greek identity. But that notion was safely ensconced within the Ottoman millet system, and the Orthodox church was a beneficiary of it: they certainly didn’t chafe against it.

The Greek War of Independence was formally started, as all Greek schoolchildren learn in school, by Germanos bishop of Old Patras on 25 March 1821. (They don’t learn that skirmishes had started a few days earlier.) And clergymen like Papaflessas and Athanasios Diakos were at the forefront of the fighting. But that was local lower clergy; it was not the policy of the church (though the Patriarch was hanged anyway).

Once Greek became an independent state, the Orthodox church was in an awkward position. It was still administered out of Istanbul, and its senior administration had obviously been an intrinsic part of how the Ottomans had ruled Greeks—so it had been collaborationist.

The former embarrassment was eventually rectified by the establishment of the autocephalous (“locally led”) Church of Greece, in 1870. The latter was rectified with some creative propaganda, such as the notion of the “secret school” (Krifo scholio)—that monks kept Greek culture alive through underground education. (No mainstream historian believes that to be true; after all, where did all the educated clergy come from, and how would the millet system have functioned without them? Few Greeks outside academia believe it to be false.)

Since independence, the Church has been firmly enmeshed in Greeks’ notion of what it is to be Greek: Orthodoxy is the state religion, Orthodox clergy preach loyalty to the state and open schools and parliament, the Greek church regards itself as the custodian of Greek national virtues.

Why are OSV order languages so rare?

Brian Collins says:

Those are the type of questions only a few people like Bob Dixon are willing to touch with a 17ft pole.

Only Dixon, may his soul be blackened (or indeed blacklisted)? Surely not. Surely we haven’t run out of functionalists in Australia!

Here’s a functionalist take, though it will have some holes in it. I’m not looking up any sources.

  • Some languages have strict syntax, and well defined word orders following the template of one of SVO, SOV, etc.
  • Some languages have free (or freer) word order, and calling them SVO or SOV is really trying to jam them into a schema by grabbing a default. It’s what typologists have to do, of course, to say anything meaningful.
  • Those languages work more according to pragmatic (information-flow) principles of word ordering.
  • The pragmatic ordering is typically topic–comment.
  • Typically, the topic is the subject, and the predicate is the comment.
  • The predicate includes the verb and the object.
  • So there is a bias towards SVO and SOV languages, whether they are pragmatically ordered or syntactically ordered: they put the subject first as a topic, and they put the predicate after the subject, as a comment.
  • A predicate is a predicate whether the object precedes or follows the verb: what matters is that the object is next to the verb.
  • The tendency (again, only a tendency) is towards head–dependent harmony: a language with VO will also tend to put nouns before adjectives, prepositions before nouns, and possessors before possessees. A language with OV will tend to do the opposite.
    • It is only a tendency, and in fact English is a notorious counterexample.
  • A Verb-fronted language is possible: the bias towards SVO and SOV does not exclude them. In fact, Celtic VSO languages developed out of SOV Indo-European, and Greek SVO gave rise to Cypriot, which has been argued to be VSO.
    • I’m vague as to what process fronts verbs historically, but it’s clearly a thing. Brian probably knows more about it, if he’s bringing up prefixing.
  • OSV and OVS are extremely rare, and you’d expect that. Whatever process is putting the O first, it’s not a commonplace one, and you’d expect it’s a fluke, rather than whatever commonish process fronts V. OSV in particular breaks up the predicate (O and V), and buries the S mid-sentence (where it isn’t going to be a topic). But OVS, which at least keeps the predicate together, is not substantially more common.
Answered 2016-12-17 · Upvoted by

Steve Rapaport, Linguistics PhD candidate at Edinburgh. Has lived in USA, Sweden, Italy, UK. and

Thomas Wier, Assistant Professor of Linguistics at the Free University of Tbilisi.

Why do many Greeks think that the word “Greek” comes from Turkish and means “slave”?

Me three: not heard of this ever. I’m surmising they’re getting mixed up with pejorative words like ραγιάς raya “cattle”, which the Ottomans did use of their Christian subjects, or with the not at all coincidental link between Slav and slave. Maybe they’ve got their wires crossed with γκιαούρης gâvur “infidel”?

And of course they certainly want to be call Hellenes and not Romioi, as the other respondents guessed.

How heated was the Greek Language Question?

If you don’t know about the Greek language question, look at the link: this won’t really make sense otherwise.

Neeraj Mathur asked in comments to Nick Nicholas’ answer to Who were the biggest enemies of Greek?

So in a sense, the Katharevousa partisans would have portrayed the Demotic advocates as the enemies of Greek heritage, while the other side would see them as the enemies of Greek folk culture. How heated was the actual debate?

Enough for people to be killed. 8 demonstrators in the Gospel riots in 1901 (protesting a translation of the Gospel of Matthew into the vernacular), and 2 demonstrators in the Orestes riots (Ορεστειακά) of 1903 (protesting the translation of Aeschylus’ Oresteia into the vernacular).

Of course, as with any such organised violent conflict, other stuff was going on; Greece had been militarily humiliated in 1897 by the Ottomans, Greece was panicked about Bulgarian encroachment to its north, and the Gospel translation was sponsored by Queen Olga, who was Russian. So, Hey Presto, moral panic: “the Russians are undermining our religion to turn us into Slavs”, combined somehow with “the Protestants are out to deracinate us” (since the translator lived in Liverpool, and there had been Protestant missionary activity in Greece for decades).

Now, this is not how a Diglossia is supposed to work. In normal diglossias, like you get in Egypt or Haiti or, for that matter, Greek in Cyprus, you have a Low variant and a High variant, people know when to use which, and it’s just the way things are done. That’s what Greece was like up to 1880. (Not the Ionian Islands though, which used the vernacular in literature, and were not in Greece until 1864.)

And the ideology was pretty universally respected: Puristic Greek would efface the orientalist shame of the vernacular, and restore Greek to something more respectable, though not as a full revival of Ancient Greek. (That made Puristic a quite unstable compromise, varying by author, and adrift between Koine and Mediaeval Greek.)

That started breaking down in the 1870s, with Valaoritis’ vernacular patriotic poetry being given official recognition. It blew up with activists in the 1880 and 1890s, of whom Psichari was only the loudest. And the dispute then was ideological, as Neeraj guessed: “enemies of our Hellenic heritage” vs “enemies of our Romaic heritage”.

Add to that though that Psichari was a Neogrammarian: the somersaults that Puristic Greek had to do to compromise between Ancient Greek and the vernacular offended him as a linguist, and he advocated a linguistically consistent morphology and phonology.

If Psichari sounds ridiculously folksy to modern speakers, it’s not because he was linguistically wrong: Standard Greek phonetics is utterly ridiculous because of its spelling pronunciations of ancient Greek. It’s because Psichari was sociolinguistically clueless (not helped by the fact that he did not live in Greece). The next generation of activists, such as Triantafyllidis and Tzartzanos, were more sociolinguistically aware, and advocated a vernacular closer to what is used now, with more concessions towards Puristic.

By their time, Demotic was universally used in literature; and the Greek diglossia was derailed: it was now a competition between two norms, Puristic and Demotic, for the status of High language. And with Demotic universal in literature, Puristic was on the back foot—though it remained universal in government and the church).

In Psichari’s generation, the conflict was Hellenic vs Romaic, but it was not yet Left vs Right. Psichari himself was a royalist; the early Communist Party dismissed the Language Question as a bourgeois distraction. And though “enemies of our Hellenic heritage” nowadays sounds reactionary, at the time it was introduced in the 1810s, Puristic was actually a vehicle of the Enlightenment, and seen as progressive.

By the 1920s, though, Puristic vs Demotic had settled into Right Wing vs Left Wing. People could work out your political persuasion in Greece, by whether you used the 1st declension or the 3rd declension in your genitives of –is nouns.

No, I am not exaggerating: I lived in Greece at the very tail end of that language feeling, and an -εως genitive still makes me wince. It’s one of the many conflicts Dimitra Triantafyllidou and I delight in having. And hey, it’s better than Turkey, where the political shibboleth was the shape of your moustache.

What killed Puristic in the end was the 1967 dictatorship’s reactionary enthusiasm for it: when democracy was restored, Puristic was dispensed with in government with universal revulsion. What replaced it of course was not Psichari’s ideal; the Constitution even warns that Demotic shall be adopted “without extremist features”. And the flavours of Standard Greek that have prevailed have waxed and waned in their archaisms in the decades since. But Greek has mostly settled down into normal registers, rather than street fighting conflict.

How many Quora superstars (10K+ followers) do you know of (whether or not you follow them)?

OP.

Rahul’s list being a year old, it excludes Jordan Yates and Annika Schauer. But that’s OK, I did want a neutral common reference.

Rahul has 153 people. I will not include celebrities from whom I’ve never seen a post (such as Vint Cerf).

  1. Jimmy Wales – 178K+
  2. Adam D’Angelo – 143K+
  3. Balaji Viswanathan – 140K+
  4. Robert Frost – 103K+
  5. Oliver Emberton – 81K+
  6. Marc Bodnick – 59K+
  7. Marcus Geduld – 55K+
  8. Brian Bi – 48K+
  9. Dan Holliday – 42K+
  10. Feifei Wang – 34K+
  11. Ellen Vrana – 34K+
  12. Joshua Engel – 33K+
  13. Garrick Saito – 28K+
  14. Richard Muller – 26K+
  15. Jon Davis – 25K+
  16. Jay Wacker – 25K+
  17. Stephanie Vardavas – 22K+
  18. Jon Mixon – 22K+
  19. Barry Hampe – 18K+
  20. Paul Denlinger – 18K+
  21. Peter Flom – 17K+
  22. Noam Kaiser – 16K+
  23. Erica Friedman – 15K+
  24. Claire J. Vannette – 15K+
  25. Jonathan Brill – 14K+
  26. Joseph Boyle – 14K+
  27. Jonas Mikka Luster – 14K+
  28. John Burgess – 14K+
  29. Melissa Stroud – 13K+
  30. Sabrina Deep – 13K+
  31. Eva Kor – 12K+
  32. Kelsey L. Hayes – 12K+
  33. Diana Crețu – 12K+
  34. Eivind Kjørstad – 12K+
  35. Tim O’Neill – 11K+
  36. Judith Meyer – 11K+
  37. Tatiana Estévez – 11K+
  38. Craig Good – 10K+
  39. David Stewart – 10K+
  40. Peter Baskerville – 10K+

So that’s only 1/3 of them that I’ve noticed here.


UPDATE, given Edward Conway’s answer.

I follow: 0

I like: 11

I dislike: 9. To date I’ve blocked 1.


UPDATE, 3 months later. I follow 1. I have blocked 2.