The Lay of Armoures

Song of Armouris – Wikipedia. A heroic Greek ballad, 200 verses, likely dating from the 11th century, though the manuscript is from the 15th.

I got into an altercation in comments to Bruce Graham’s answer to What language was used to connect Europe and Byzantium?, an answer approving of the description of Byzantine vernacular Greek as “the childish and degenerate Greek spoken by the poor”.

Pieter van der Wilt commented:

20.5.2017 Since you seem to appreciate the “elegant writing” of R.West, how would you call the “childish and degenerate Greek” she mentions ? Still elegant ?

The OP replied:

Street talk. Perhaps it had some charm. Perhaps you can give me some examples of Byzantium street Greek demonstrating how it outshines Homer.

Πίτερ βαν ντερ Βιλτ, πατριώτη μου, τούτο το μεταφράζω για σένα.


Ελληνική Μεσαιωνική Ποίηση – Άσμα του Αρμούρη

(Already translated here: Ἄσμα τοῦ Ἀρμούρη / The Song of Armouris – Translation & Commentary, and by David Ricks.)

A different sky today; a different day.
Today the noble lads wish to go riding.
But sir Armoures’ son, he will not ride.
And then the lad, he goes up to his mother.
“O Mother, may my siblings give you joy;
[…]
and see my father; mother, let me ride.”
And then the mother gives him this reply:

“You’re young, you’re underage; you should not ride.
Yet, my good son, if go to ride you must,
your father’s lance is hanging up the stairs,
that which your father seized in Babylon.
It’s gilded top to bottom, decked in pearls.
And if you bend it once, and bend it twice,
and if you bend it thrice, then you can ride.”
And then the lad, then young Armoures’ son,
went crying up the stairs, came laughing down.
He shook to shake it, he was seized to seize it.
He bound it to his arm; he shook; he swerved.
And then the lad, he goes up to his mother.
“O mother, mother, shall I break this for you?”

And then the mother called the nobles out:
“Come look, you nobles, saddle the black horse up.
Saddle and bridle him, his father’s horse.
It’s been twelve years that none have watered him,
it’s been twelve years that none have ridden him.
He eats his horseshoe nails, bound to a stake.”

The lords came out and saddled the black horse up.
He stretched his arms, and found himself a rider.
He’d travelled thirty miles, ere he said “hail!”
He’d travelled sixty five, ere they replied.
He saw and rode the Euphrates up and down,
he rode it up and down, and found no ford.
A Saracen there stood, and laughed at him:

“The Saracens have steeds that chase the winds,
that catch the dove and partridge on the wing,
and reach the hare that they pursue uphill,
and anything they see, they race and seize.
Yet even those steeds can’t cross the Euphrates.
And you would cross it now with this poor nag?”

On hearing this, the youth was seized with rage.
He spurred the black horse, so that he could cross.
Mighty the Euphrates flowed, with murky waters,
with waves down in the depths, and overflowing.
He spurred the black horse, struck him, and went forth,
he shrieked as shrill a voice as he could muster:

“Thank you, kind God, thank you a thousandfold.
You gave me bravery; you take it from me.”
An angel’s voice then came down from the heavens:
“Now stick your lance into the palm tree’s root,
and stick your clothes in front, onto your pommel.
Then spur your black horse, make him go across.”

He spurred his black horse, and he made him cross.
Before the youth had let his clothes dry off,
he spurred his black horse, to the Saracen.
He punched his face, his jaw he dislocated.
“Tell me, fool Saracen, where are your armies?”

And then the Saracen said to Armoures:
“My God, the brave will ask such stupid questions.
First do they punch, and then they ask their questions.
By Sweet Sir Sun, and by his Sweet Dame Mother,
last night a hundred thousand of us met,
all good and choice, and all with bucklers green.
They’re mighty men, who will not fear a thousand,
ten thousand, or however many come.”

He spurred his black horse, and went up a hill.
He saw an army, thought it can’t be counted.
And then the lad considered, and he said:

“If I attack them while unarmed, they’ll boast
that I had caught them unawares, unarmed.”
He shrieked as shrill a voice as he could muster:
“Arm yourselves, Saracens, you filthy curs,
put on your breastplates quickly […]
and do not disbelieve Armoures came,
Armoures’ son, the meet and valiant man.”

By Sweet Sir Sun, and by his Sweet Dame Mother,
as many stars are in heaven, leaves on trees,
so many soldiers jumped onto their saddles,
Saddled and bridled, leapt and rode their steeds.
And then the youth, he made his own arrangements.
He drew a fine sword from a silver scabbard,
he flung it to the sky, and caught it falling.

He spurred his black horse, and he drew close by.
“If I forget you, strike me from my kin.”
And then he started warfare, close and brave,
he slashed along the sides; the middle wearied.

By Sweet Sir Sun, and by his Sweet Dame Mother,
the whole day long, he slashed the troops upwater,
the whole night long, he slashed the troops downwater.
He struck and struck at them, he left not one.

The youth got off his horse, to feel the breeze.
One filthy cur, one of the Saracens
lay there in ambush and he took his steed,
lay there in ambush and he took his club.

By Sweet Sir Sun, and by his Sweet Dame Mother,
he chased him forty miles on foot with kneeplates,
another forty miles on foot with breastplate,
and at the gates of Syria he caught him,
took out his sword, and cuts his hand away.
“Now you go, Saracen, and bear the news.”

His father sat outside the prison gate.
He recognised his son’s own steed and club;
he saw no rider, and his soul would perish.
He sighed a mighty sigh, it shook the tower.
And the emir called forth his noblemen.

“Go see, you noblemen, wherefore he sighs.
And if his meal is bad, let him have mine.
And if his wine is bad, let him drink mine.
And if his cell stinks, let them perfume it,
and if his chains weigh heavy, cut them lighter.”

And then Armoures told the noblemen:
“Nor is my meal bad, that I should have his,
nor is my wine bad, that I should drink his,
nor do my chains weigh heavy, to cut lighter.
I recognised my son’s own steed and club;
I see no rider, and my soul would perish.”

Then the emir replied unto Armoures:
“Stay, dear Armoures, stay a little while.
I’ll have the trumpets sound, the mighty bugles,
to gather Babylon and Cappadocia.
And where your darling son is […]
they’ll bring him to me, hands bound side and back.
Wait, dear Armoures, wait a little while.”

He had the trumpets sound, the mighty bugles,
to gather Babylon and Cappadocia.
And no one gathered save the one-armed man.
Then the emir said to the one-armed man:
“Tell me, fool Saracen, where are my armies?”

And then the Saracen told the emir:
“Wait, O my master, wait a little while.
Let light come to my eyes, breath to my soul,
let blood flow back to my remaining arm,
and then I’ll tell you where your armies are.
But truly, nobles, I am speaking idly:
last night a hundred thousand of us met,
all good and choice, and all with bucklers green.
all mighty men, who will not fear a thousand,
ten thousand, or however many come.
A lad appeared over a savage mountain.
He shrieked as shrill a voice as he could muster:
“Arm yourselves, Saracens, take breastplates, curs,
and do not disbelieve Armoures came,
Armoures’ son, the meet and valiant man.”

By Sweet Sir Sun, and by his Sweet Dame Mother,
as many stars are in heaven, leaves on trees,
so many soldiers jumped onto their saddles,
Saddled and bridled, leapt and rode their steeds.
And then the youth, he made his own arrangements.
He drew a fine sword from a silver scabbard,
he flung it to the sky, and caught it falling.

He spurred his black horse, and he drew close by.
“If I forget you, strike me from my kin.”
He slashed along the sides; the middle wearied.
By Sweet Sir Sun, and by his Sweet Dame Mother,
the whole day long, he slashed our troops upwater,
the whole night long, he slashed our troops downwater.
He struck and struck at us, he left not one.

The youth got off his horse, to feel the breeze.
And good and prudent, I set ambush for him,
I lay in ambush there and took his steed.

By Sweet Sir Sun, and by his Sweet Dame Mother,
he chased me forty miles on foot with kneeplates,
another forty miles on foot with breastplate.
Here at the gates of Syria he caught me,
took out his sword, and cut my hand away.
“Now you go, Saracen, and bear the news.”

Then the emir replied unto Armoures:
“Are these the fine deeds of your son, Armoures?”
And then Armoures [the emir?] wrote a pretty letter,
and sent it forth by bird, by pretty swallow:

“Tell the cur’s son, the child of lawlessness:
show mercy to the Saracens you meet,
else you’ll have none when you fall in my hands.”

And then the young lad wrote a pretty letter,
and sent it forth by bird, by pretty swallow:

“Tell my sweet father, tell my Lord and master,
while I still see the houses double bolted,
while I still see my mother dressed in black,
while I still see my siblings dressed in black,
I’ll drink the blood of Saracens I meet.
I’ll fall on Syria if they make me angry:
I’ll fill with heads the alleyways of Syria,
I’ll fill with blood the dried out creeks of Syria.”

And the emir grew fearful, hearing this.
And the emir said to his noblemen:
“Go, go, you nobles, set Armoures free,
go take him to the bath, to bathe and change,
at morning bring him here, to dine with me.”

The nobles went and set Armoures free,
they took his chains off and his manacles,
they took him to the bath, to bathe and change,
they brought him to the emir, to dine with him.
Then the emir replied unto Armoures:

“Go, dear Armoures, go back to your homeland.
And train your son: I’ll make him son-in-law,
neither my niece he’ll have, nor yet my cousin,
but my own daughter, dearer than my eyes.
And train your son […]
show mercy to the Saracens he meets,
and if he gains aught, let them share it out,
and be at peace with one another.”

2017–05–22: Elke Weiss

Forwarding on from Elke Weiss:

Hi, folks.

I need a break. I love my amazing friends here, but I definitely need to concentrate on career building, finishing my novel, moving, my new board position, networking and mental health. And of course, leave the house and see friends. I hope to be back in August. Contact me via email if you need me. I will miss you all, and I wish you only joy and happiness and success.

Why do Greek words in -της sometimes have the accent on the final syllable and sometimes on the penultimate? (e.g. υπολογιστής, ουρανοξύστης)

I wish I was happier with the answer. Went through Smyth and Kühner–Blass.

If the -της suffix is applied to a noun, and indicates someone associated with the noun, e.g. ναύ-ς ‘ship’ > ναύ-της ‘sailor’, the stress is penult.

If the -της suffix is applied to a verb, and indicates the agent of a verb, the stress is usually on the ultima, e.g. μανθάνω ‘learn’ > μαθητής ‘ student’; but occasionally penult: τίθημι ‘place’ > νομοθέτης ‘lawgiver’.

Kühner-Blass §107.4.e does attempt some rules on the distribution of stress in that context. Are you ready?

Ausführliche Grammatik der Griechischen Sprache

Why yes, it’s in German. Summarising:

  • Penult: pure, short verb roots: ὑφάντ-ης, ἀγύρ-της, ἐπι-στά-της, νομο-θέ-της, ἐπι-βά-της, λωπο-δύ-της, προ-δό-της, ἐφέ-της, ἐρέ-της, ἐργά-της, δεσπό-της.
    • Exceptions: κρι-τής, ὑπο-κρι-τής, but ὀνειρο-κρί-της; εὑρε-τής. Attic stressed on the ultima some forms derived from liquid verbs (verb roots ending in l,n,r): καθαρτής, ἀμυντής, εὐθυντής, πραϋντής, ψαλτής, φαιδρυντής, καλλυντής, ποικιλτής.
      • Note that some of these exceptions were undone in later Greek: εὑρέ-της, ψάλτης.
  • Ultima: verb roots with a long last vowel, or with an /s/ before the ending, particulary common in verbs ending in -ζω: ποιη-τής, μαθη-τής, θεᾱ-τής, μηνῡ-τής, ζηλω-τής, δικασ-τής, ὀρχησ-τής, κτισ-τής.
    • Exceptions: ἀή-της, ἀλή-της, πλανή-της, δυνάσ-της, κυβερνή-της, πλάσ-της, ψεύσ-της, πενέσ-της, αἰσυμνή-της.
      • And a few more exceptions got added later too: κτίσ-της.

So there was originally a phonological condition on whether the agentive suffix was accented or not; and as so often happens in the history of Greek, that rule was blown away to kingdom come, even within Classical Greek.

OP gave the example of ουρανοξύστης, ‘skyscraper’. The word for ‘scraper’ is derived from the verb ξέω, aorist ἔ-ξυσ-α. In Attic, it used the older agentive ending, ξυσ-τήρ. ξύστης violates the rule in Kühner, where a sigma means ultima stress; but by the time the form ξύστης was used, the phonological conditioning was long out the window. The form first shows up, as ξύστης, in the third century AD (LSJ Supplement), though in the 17th century vernacular Somavera dictionary, it is accented “correctly” as ξυστής. It shows up as ξύστης in Trapp’s Lexicon of (Late) Byzantine Greek, as do the compounds ὀδοντοξύστης ‘toothpick’ and μαρμαροξύστης ‘marbleworker’.

I think the answer to your question, OP, is there is a usual pattern to the accents, but it all too often ends up random.

Why are my follows and followers on Quora segregated by language?

Why aren’t my follows and followers shared if they also participate in other language versions of Quora?

I can only say that in my limited experience they are—certainly on the German Quora. I did not need to explicitly follow Clarissa Lohr or Joachim Pense, they came with the territory. As has Judith Meyer, who I have not interacted with in a long time.

Where can I find a reference for Greek vocabulary in Katharevousa?

Any dictionary of Greek before 1970 is going to be biased towards Katharevousa, and that includes any Greek dictionary you find online (legally). That includes, for example, the 1868 Contopoulos English–Greek dictionary, Νέον λεξικόν ελληνόαγγλικόν. It includes the 15 volume Dimitrakos monsterpiece (not linked, since bootlegged). It also includes any number of Greek–Greek or Greek–French dictionaries, such as Dehèque, Hépitès, Koumanoudes, and Skarlatos Byzantios. You’ll find all of these on Google Books or archive.org

The lexicographers at Trapp’s Lexikon der Byzantinischen Gräzität in Vienna use Stamatakos’ three-volume Dictionary of Modern Greek (Λεξικόν της νέας ελληνικής γλώσσης, καθαρευούσης και δημοτικής και εκ της νέας ελληνικής εις την αρχαίαν / Ιωάννου Σταματάκου, 1952) as their reference for Katharevousa.

When was it a rule that double rhos (Greek letters – ῤῥ) should be written with smooth and rough breathing marks and when did the rule change?

There’s a reason Konstantinos Konstantinides never heard of this practice: it had dropped out of use in Modern Greek early in the 20th century. As in fact had the initial rough breathing on rho.

The ῤῥ orthography used to be regular in Western typography, but has long since fallen out of use; from memory, it was routine in early 19th century editions of Classical texts, and rare by late 19th century editions.

The ῤῥ orthography reflects a phonological reality of Classical Greek, that the second rho in a pair was voiceless, something attested in Herodian. Allen’s Vox Graeca (p. 39), who mentions the evidence, also refers to writing ῤῥ as a Byzantine practice, and it is of course corroborated in the Latin transliteration <rrh> (e.g. Pyrrhus = Πύῤῥος).

What would be considered Taboo in Greece?

  • Not accepting food and drink from a household you’re visiting.
  • Insisting on paying your own share of the meal (if not taboo, certainly frowned upon: you have to at least pretend to offer to pay for everybody).
  • Failing to use formulaic expressions (“Happy month!” “Happy business!” “May she live long for you!” “With health!” “Life to you!” “Take this guy to your wedding, and he’ll wish you many happy returns!”)
  • Waiting your turn in a queue isn’t a taboo, but it does mark you out as maladjusted to the social realities there. Even if there is a proverb encouraging it. (“Even if you’re a priest, you’ll go to your line”)
  • No taboo about blasphemy: cursing in Greece really is still cursing.
  • Ethnographically, I think there is still a taboo about dropping bread to the ground. It was enforced by the legend of how Hagia Sophia was inspired by Justinian dropping a crumb of communion bread to the floor, a bee flying off with it, and fashioning a mini Hagia Sophia of wax with the crumb at the altar.
  • Praising people too vocally, especially if they are babies. Ritual spitting ensues to ward off the evil eye. That is probably on the way out.
  • Saying nice things about Turks. That’s probably starting to be on the way out too.
  • Saying nice things about Angela Merkel or Wolfgang Schäuble. That one’s definitely on the way in.

What is a touching love poem in Greek?

A lot of these are going to be Modern Greek. This included.

Nikolaos Politis’ 1914 collection of Greek folk song was defining, not only for Greek folklore studies, but for the formation of Modern Greek identity. Generations learned how to be Greek from the songs published in the collection; and generations missed out on hearing the actual tunes.

In discussion with Turks here, we’ve noticed that while Turkish and Greek music are very similar, there is a sense of abandon in Turkish, and a sense of restraint in Greek song. Politis was aware of that too, and there was one song in particular he registered his disapproval of. In its excess of feeling, he said, this cannot have been Greek in origin. It must have come from the east.

Like Dionysus himself, you might say:

It is obvious that this is nothing but an image in the form of hyperbole depicting the wondrous redness of the beloved maiden’s lips. Of course, this hyperbole appears to belong rather to an Asian poet, and is alien to the restraint of Greek folk poetry.

It has indeed an excess of feeling. It is wonderful. I put it up on my website 15 years ago: Red Lip.

Κόκκιν’ αχείλι φίλησα κι έβαψε το δικό μου
Και το μαντίλι το ’συρα κι έβαψε το μαντίλι.
Και στο ποτάμι το ’πλυνα κι έβαψε το ποτάμι.
Κι έβαψε η άκρη του γιαλού κι η μέση του πελάγου.
Κατέβη ο αϊτός να πιεί νερό κι έβαψαν τα φτερά του.
Κι έβαψε ο ήλιος ο μισός και το φεγγάρι ακέριο.

I kissed my love’s red lip; her lip, it reddened mine.
I wiped mine with a cloth; the cloth, it went all red.
I washed it in the stream; the stream, it went all red.
Red now the seashore’s edge, red the midst of the main.
The eagle came to drink; its wings, they went all red;
red now is half the sun, red now the moon entire.

Googling the lyric, I found that it was set to music in 1989. (Remember, Politis didn’t bother recording the tunes.)

It’s a red letter day when the first comment you see on a YouTube page is not only not stupid, it’s in fact from the singer-songwriter:

A friend pointed the traditional verses out to me. In two days I composed the tune and the parts, then I sang it in the recording. I was 25 years old. Thank you for uploading it. Nikos Grapsas.

We have Francophile, Anglophile and Sinophile but what do we call someone who loves The Netherlands?

Nederlandia – Vicipaedia

  • Country Name in Latin: Nederlandia or Batavia
  • Name of inhabitants: Batavi or Nederlandenses

The Dutch may well want to avoid Batavia these days, but Batavophile is less of a mouthful than Nederlandophile. Marginally more hits on Google too (438 vs 299).

Hollandophile has 711 hits, which just shows how insensitive the world is to the concerns of the Eastern Netherlands.

Norway is Norvegia in Latin; although the entry has not been filled in on Latin Wikipedia, a Norwegian is Norvegus. So Norvegophile.

6 hits on Google. Though 154 for Norwegophile.

I leave any inferences to the reader…

How would you pronounce Michael Masiello’s name?

I would pronounce it [mæsˈjɛɫəʊ]. Same as Hilary Gilbertson and Alton Shen: Mass Yellow. Michael is doing [mæsˈɪjɛɫəʊ]: Massy Yellow, so I hereby deem me close enough.

The proper pronunciation, of course, is [ˈmaɡister ˈoptimus].